01:13:21 Guhyasakhi Guhyasakhi: Yay! Thank you for pointing this out! 01:17:32 Aparimana Hone: The essence of point 1 is this: some views and teachings that are useful for approaching sila and samadhi are unhelpful when approaching insight practice, and vice versa. If we approach insight practice in exactly the same way as we have approached sila and samadhi, we will probably not get very far. Sometimes people are very suspicious of insight teachings because they appear to contradict teachings that they know to be beneficial. They might feel that every step should reinforce what they have already learned, because "there are no higher teachings, only deeper understandings". However, we shouldn't be afraid of teachings that appear to contradict each other, when they apply to different areas of practice. We are going to look at some specific examples in the other six points, but I will add some general examples now as well... The developmental model is a good framework for sila and samadhi. You can develop good ethical habits, for example, and you can develop metta in meditation. Your starting poin 01:18:06 Aparimana Hone: The developmental model is a good framework for sila and samadhi. You can develop good ethical habits, for example, and you can develop metta in meditation. Your starting point is something that you already know and experience, that you are seeking to develop through attention and repetition. It works. However, when it comes to insight practice, and in particular breaking the first fetter, the developmental approach isn't very useful, because you don't already have the insight to develop through repetition. If you want to be given a practice that you can just sit down and do regularly, secure in the knowledge that insight will inevitability follow, you will be disappointed. Another example: when working on sila and samadhi, we get very used to distinguishing positive from negative mental states, in the spirit of the Four Right Efforts. However, when approaching insight practice, the emphasis shifts to impartially noticing whatever is going on, without trying to change anything. After years of practice of R 01:18:18 Aparimana Hone: Another example: when working on sila and samadhi, we get very used to distinguishing positive from negative mental states, in the spirit of the Four Right Efforts. However, when approaching insight practice, the emphasis shifts to impartially noticing whatever is going on, without trying to change anything. After years of practice of Right Effort, this can seem at best pointless, and at worst heretical, because we think that we are allowing negativity to run unchecked. One last example: our ethical practice is often bound up with our self-view. I feel that I freely choose to act ethically because of the kind of person I want to be, and that I will suffer the consequences of my behaviour, ethical or unethical. There is nothing wrong with this. However, when confronted with insight practices that call into question our self view, our sense of free will, and the idea that there is any kind of self at all, some people feel that they are being led down a path that contradicts their ethical practice, and so can't 01:23:55 Aparimana Hone: apologies, the text was too long for chat, I had to paste it in overlapping sections - you can see the whole thing here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-GAnYoslKx4PRf-B9rzOfu9Halyco3FR0-0ZH_wKzwI/edit?usp=sharing 01:31:14 Shantiketu .: Thanissaro’s translation of the Bāhiya sutta seems pretty good. His take on the well known bit is “In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." 01:31:51 Tejananda Wakeman: Questions for groups: 1) Are you now clear about the overall aim/intention of these seminars? 2) Have the two areas around anatta we’ve outlined today clarified anything for you? 3) Do you have any reservations or other feedback for us? *Post points from discussion on chat. 01:32:20 Suvarnajyoti Johnston: If they are on chat they may not be visible in the groups 01:59:20 Karunajoti Grace: how do we raise a hand 02:11:26 Amaradhi/Seattle: Are we trying to come up with "stepping stones" that might be ways to help meditators with moving toward "seeing through"? 02:13:29 Padmadharini: I appreciate what you just said about this being methodological rather than doctrinal. What helps us when looking at direct experience to see things differently. I found looking through the lens of their being no self extremely powerful and helpful. 02:20:50 Guhyasakhi Guhyasakhi: Please say more about the Sikkha group training sessions.. how can we find out more? 02:21:55 Guhyasakhi Guhyasakhi: Dhyana and insight meditation retreat? 02:27:51 Vanaraji: Thank you so much for the clarity you've given this evening and also for this very important work you are doing. 02:27:53 Padmadharini: Thanks for organising this. Great to have this space to share and talk about these subjects 02:28:01 Aryakanta / Helene Jones: Thank you all. Sadhu! 02:28:07 Shraddhadharma (she/her): That you for holding the space for this topic. 02:28:08 Acalavajri: Thanks all .. really good evening 02:28:14 Sasanajyoti Fraser: Bye to all